Employee Benefits Consultant with BBG Jessica DuBois shares how her
agency is using social media to shake up the corporate healthcare benefits landscape.



Full Transcript below:

Dr. Josh Luke: Welcome back to Dr. Luke’s Waiting Room, The Healthcare Authority Podcast. Well, guys, you know I spend hours a day on social media, and I always tell my wife [00:01:00] it’s working, it’s business, it’s productive, I swear. And I have proof of it because today for the first time I’ve had the pleasure of speaking to somebody who I found and kind of discovered on social media and follow and have learned a lot from because she’s on the front lines of healthcare affordability battle with me. And she truly loves social media as well, or she’s good at it, at least. Jessica Du Bois, welcome to the show. How are you doing, Jessica?

Jessica Du Bois: Very good. Thank you so much for having me. I’m a big follower of you as well.

Dr. Josh Luke: Yeah, I’m excited to get to know [00:01:30] you. Your current title is you’re a Benefits Consultant with BBG, the Business Benefits Group out of Washington, DC. Tell us what you guys special in so people can kind of, before we start asking you some more questions, get to know a little bit about what your niche is other than social media marketing, of course.

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah. We’re an independent agency, a little over 50 employees. We’ve been in business for 25-plus years focused on small and midsize businesses, but our niche is core benefits. It’s evolved into more self-funding and consulting. We also do retirement plans as well as worker’s comp, we do the whole realm. But I would say our specialty right now is definitely consulting and doing self-funding plans.

Dr. Josh Luke: Awesome. Yeah. And one of the things that jumped off of, Jessica… Jessica’s on LinkedIn, by the way. Jessica, are you on Twitter?

Jessica Du Bois: I’m on Twitter and Instagram.

Dr. Josh Luke: Okay. Tell us your handles there really quickly if you will on Twitter.

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah, on Twitter it’s jesdubois, 

Dr. Josh Luke: And on Insta?

Jessica Du Bois: Yep, jessicaduboisbbg.

Dr. Josh Luke: All right, jessicaduboisbbg on Insta, so there you have it. You can follow her there. And what’s your company’s website while we’re doing this?

Jessica Du Bois: Yes. So it’s bbgbroker.com, but I have my own personal website as well. And that’s jessicadubois.co.

Dr. Josh Luke: Oh, hey. So my students would be proud. I teach full time at the university, and I always teach my students right now get your phone [00:03:00] out and buy your website, whether it’s dot com or dot com’s available, buy it, if not dot co, and I always go, “Otherwise, some artists named Josh Luke at the Portland is going to own your URL for the rest of your life,” which is what happened to me. So that’s actually why I have drjoshluke.com because nobody told me that when I was younger. So good for you. Good lesson folks. While you’re listening, pull out that phone and buy your name on URL.

Dr. Josh Luke: So, Jessica, here’s what jumped off… A lot of things jumped up your LinkedIn page at me, but I saw that you grew up and went [00:03:30] to school in Iowa. And tell us if you would, the difference between access to health care in Iowa, growing up and in college, and access to healthcare and one of the biggest cities in the country in Washington, DC. What are some of the nuances because you and I deal with every day that no market is the same, no company’s the same when it comes to health care, access differs. What are some of the things that you notice are completely different between… Well, first of all, what city in Iowa are you from?

Jessica Du Bois: [00:04:00] I would call it more of a town, is a 800-person farm town and that’s where my family still is today. And it’s called Dunkerton, Iowa.

Dr. Josh Luke: Dunkerton, I’ve never had any guests from Dunkerton. This is awesome. So how does accessing healthcare in Dunkerton, Iowa differ from accessing healthcare in Washington, DC, and what have you learned from it?

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah, so you actually have to drive away. So I mean, even a grocery store is 30 miles away. So to see primary care, you’re going to drive 30-plus miles away. And [00:04:30] so my brother actually had cancer when I was in high school, and he’s doing well today. But just to put that in perspective, my family had to actually move two hours away and basically live in a hospital while he was going through chemotherapy. And so that was really over the course of two years. Where in DC, I mean you have access to care everywhere you go, so that the options are endless. So that’s one.

Dr. Josh Luke: [00:05:00] Yeah. And so you put together benefits packages your organization does for companies of all sizes. And do you ever draw upon that growing up, that experience, that creativity that you had to use sometimes to enhance access to doctors or services? I mean, that’s got to have served you well in what you do nowadays, don’t you think?

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s the way that it’s looked at as well. Being from a middle-class family where people work in blue-collar as well as being a sales [00:05:30] rep for an insurance carrier in Birmingham, Alabama. I saw their views on health care and access to care much different than it is here. I think that there, it’s seen as part of their responsibility to take more of an initiative in their health care and how they seek it, how they pay for it. And I think that that’s why they are so much more ahead than probably people in DC where they didn’t really get hit by recession here.

Jessica Du Bois: So it’s a [00:06:00] lot of government jobs. It’s a lot of government contractors who are making over six figures. A lot of them have 100% paid health care. So we’re dealing with a much different population who feels as if maybe it’s their right to have the largest network whereas here at BBG try to present the message that the size of network doesn’t matter. It’s really the quality and the convenience and in going to get that care rather than having the largest network possible.

Dr. Josh Luke: [00:06:30] So what are some of the unique differentiators of BBG, your organization now? I know you said you focus… Not your focus, but your largest client base is small and midsize companies. What are some of the things that set you guys apart?

Jessica Du Bois: So being independent, first off, I mean we all see that at all of these agencies are being bought up, and I bring that up… I think people are sick of hearing that. But I bring that up because it means that we can basically make our own decisions. So [00:07:00] I’m never worried about going into a client or group figuring out what they need, assess that and create my own strategy and solution for them. Because I know that my team’s going to support it, but also I can decide how much value that’s worth in revenue for the company as well.

Jessica Du Bois: And so I would say something that really differentiates us as an agency is the fact that we come in and consult a lot of the time. So that’s whether I’m taking a group from PEO to self-funding, which I’m doing right at this [00:07:30] moment with a hundred-person company. I can just basically structure that the way that I want to where most agencies I feel like probably have to kind of abide by rules. So we were really looking out for the client’s best interest because I had the opportunity to do that.

Dr. Josh Luke: So tell me… In my books and in my social media, I love to talk about millennial culture because I believe that millennial culture a few years ago became American culture, and those who [00:08:00] don’t want to embrace it that turn away from it, really that’s a you problem and not a me problem is what I always say. That’s you’re only hurting yourself is the point.

Dr. Josh Luke: And with millennials now being the largest generation in the workforce, what are some of the requests and trends that you’re hearing from your clients, or those that are looking at you potentially, “Hey, our employees are asking for more of this or more of that.” What are some of the trends you’re seeing hearing in the last couple of years?

Jessica Du Bois: Yes, so looking at health [00:08:30] care specifically, it’s going to be ease of use. So being able to navigate through a health plan and for things like that, we’re bringing as a solution health advocacy tools, whether it’s an app on your phone that helps you understand your health plan better or helps you schedule a virtual assistant that helps schedule an appointment for you. But I think that it’s also, mental health is huge, so plans have mental health coverage in them, but most employees don’t know how to use [00:09:00] it or what it means.

Jessica Du Bois: Okay. So if most therapists aren’t in-network, what does that mean to you as an employee? So trying to educate them through that part is huge, especially when we’re looking at pharmacy spend. And then another side of it for benefits, I think it’s looking outside of healthcare and looking at financial wellness as well as paying back student loans. So I think those are big aspects that we’re going to continue to see as being more important.

Dr. Josh Luke: Those are some excellent [00:09:30] points. What about direct contracting between employers and health systems? Have you guys engaged in any of that? Because that’s one of the themes that we’re seeing a lot this year as well.

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah. So we’re definitely taking part in that. So Derek in my office, which if you listen to his podcast, you’ve probably seen him on social media as well. Derek Winn. So he’s kind of leading those conversations. But we are talking with hospital systems, and I would say primary [00:10:00] care physicians, but we’re finding more success in those rural areas. So we’re actually leaving DC and going farther out into Virginia and having conversations with those hospital systems, with those providers. And we’re getting a lot more traction with that than we are in DC.

Dr. Josh Luke: And a lot of the folks that brought me in, as most of you know I was a hospital CEO for about 10 years and sometimes I’ll do a little subcontract with somebody like Jessica, another person used to say, “Hey, this client [00:10:30] is really interested in direct contracting with the hospital, but they can’t seem to get the hospital on board. Can you come with us to this meeting and speak their language a little bit on our behalf, since I’ve learned a little bit about the other side as well.”

Dr. Josh Luke: But what I found in those meetings is I think one of the hot points for CEOs like myself, particularly CFOs, is, “Hey, we’re going to cut out the collection process when we do direct contracting with an employer, with the health system, we’re actually in some cases going to send you X [00:11:00] amount of dollars the first day of the month, which is a prepayment against the services you’re going to provide. And then we’ll make up for the balance of it later.”

Dr. Josh Luke: And then the argument that, “Hey, somewhere between 50 and 80% of your expenses in the hospital are collections. We’re eliminating that process, we’re going to pay you within 72 hours.” And again, these different payment structures seem to be the point. Hospitals love cash, and they hate clutter and extra clicks [00:11:30] and extra collection. So what have you seen to be some of the hot points when you guys have had these discussions?

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah, I think that’s exactly, I think that the providers are ready to have those conversations and ready to engage in that. I think it’s more of the employers that we have a more difficult time with. And so the success we’ve found with the employer side is actually showing them what it could look and by engaging more with their employees. So I think that you have to go outside of the conference room with the HR [00:12:00] manager or the CEO and start talking with the employees and have those conversations about what it could look like. It can’t just be a two-person conversation because there’s a big learning curve. It’s so different than what people are used to.

Dr. Josh Luke: So I get asked this all the time, Jessica, so I’m just going to put you on the spot. Amazon, this whole Haven health creation between Amazon and JP Morgan and Berkshire Hathaway to really redefine how [00:12:30] healthcare benefits are offered to employees. Is it going to massively change how benefits are delivered in this country or are you more skeptical than that?

Jessica Du Bois: I’m more skeptical than that. I think it’s interesting that it was such a hot topic a year ago, and it’s kind of died off a little bit. I have hope, but I think there’s conflicts of interests that we’ve already seen with some of their ownership and other facilities and parts of the healthcare system that they are actually making money off [00:13:00] of.

Jessica Du Bois: But I do like that it’s gone into mainstream media more. I think that that’s good for everyone. And I also, we have a presidential election coming up too, so I think that that’s an important thing to talk about. But I think that these are opportunities, that’s how I see them. Every single time things like this come up, it gets people scared and people start creating change and things actually happen and that’s what I’m looking forward to.

Dr. Josh Luke: So I’m going to [00:13:30] guess, I’m a proud Gen X, so I have no problem acknowledging it, which is why I think people are amused by the fact that I love talking about millennials and the millennial culture. I’m going to guess, Jessica, that you’re a millennial. Is that accurate?

Jessica Du Bois: I am. And I’m not even afraid to say that [crosstalk 00:13:44].

Dr. Josh Luke: Yeah, own it. Be proud of it. Hey, American culture is a millennial culture. So you’re in there, right? So let me go to the next topic. I read some articles, and I’ve seen this to be true. I believe this to be true. Millennials across the board have a… There’s [00:14:00] a trend that’s evolved, which is eliminating the middleman. We see it in real estate where you see Redfin, you see Purple Bricks. And my brother, who’s a realtor, pointed this out, and because they’re eliminating the middlemen across the board.

Dr. Josh Luke: And I can wait and find out what happens and whine about it or I can adjust now and be prepared for the fact that millennials are feeling empowered to ask questions that the rest of us just kind of shrugged our shoulders at for years, which is why am I paying a third party? And is the amount of money it’s costing me really worth the value [00:14:30] I’m getting?

Dr. Josh Luke: And in healthcare, there’s a ton of these middlemen. And I actually said this at a huge national broker event and one of the comments in my feedback was, “I didn’t like the fact that he started off by telling me I won’t have a job in 10 years.” They guys, at least I said 10 years. Right?

Dr. Josh Luke: But the point I wanted to make was this, and I want to ask you if you believe this because I’ve read some articles, and I see it to be true, and I believe it to be true. Are millennials eliminating the middlemen across the board and making [00:15:00] them unnecessary? Such as in real estate, such as in healthcare, pharmacy benefit managers, third-party administrators, which is why direct contracting has become popular. Two questions; are you seeing millennials eliminating middlemen across the board being one of them? And if so, what impact is that going to have on health care?

Jessica Du Bois: I think if you’re not adding value, absolutely. I think that’s why I try to take the approach of being an advocate and partner rather than a benefits broker because that’s what broker immediately what you’re thinking of. Okay, so you’re brokering two things. [00:16:30] Do I need that? Are you adding value? What are you bringing to the table? So that’s why I like to think of us as an advocate and consultant because we actually need to bring in strategies and add value or quite honestly you should be eliminated. Especially thinking about how much money lots of or many brokers are making by being a middleman that’s not adding value.

Dr. Josh Luke: Well, and the transparency of the two themes that I write about in 2019 healthcare cost transparency, of course, pricing transparency [00:17:00] and then direct contracting. And so when I started my speech at this national event by saying what I just told you guys, “Hey, millennials are eliminating the middleman.” It’s happening in real estate. 60 Minutes a year and a half ago I did a piece on pharmacy benefit managers basically destroying them, making them look like all of their work was hidden bonuses that they get, and it did a lot of damage.

Dr. Josh Luke: And so the next question is, with direct contracting being the theme, are we going to continue to see more of this in healthcare? [00:17:30] And I think with all those things pointing in the same direction, I think for sure you’re seeing the trends that are going to eliminate middlemen whether it’s direct contracting, whether it’s redefining how PBM is used.

Dr. Josh Luke: I told my buddy who was a PBM, old dude, “You got to change your name, man. You got to refer to yourself as something else after that 60 Minutes show.” So I appreciate your perspective. My favorite thing that you’ve said, and you’ve said it a couple of times so far, Jess is this, I saw that one of your social media names is Jess, so I just dropped a Jess in there. Is that Okay?

Jessica Du Bois: Okay.

Dr. Josh Luke: Can I call you Jess? All right. Okay.

Jessica Du Bois: Yes, [inaudible 00:17:59].

Dr. Josh Luke: [00:18:00] Several times I’ve heard Jessica say this and when I was… Remember I’m a hospital CEO who was asked to write a book on healthcare affordability, and so there was a huge learning curve and one of the things I learned was that brokers know that the word broker has a negative connotation, so they changed their name years ago to benefits advisors, but I liked how Jessica described it several times. I try to position myself as an advocate and/or a consultant and not a broker.

Dr. Josh Luke: And that I think is the answer [00:18:30] to that reason why millennials are eliminating the middleman, be an advocate, consult and strategize with me on how to do this better. Otherwise, what value are you bringing to this process, whether it’s real estate or not? How have your clients reacted to that role as you being more of an advisor to them than really truly serving as a broker who says, “Here’s what I got. You take it or leave it.”

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah. Well, I think perception of your service and solutions [00:19:00] is the truth. And that’s what I try to think about when I’m speaking with employees. So as an advocate or a consultant or advisor, I do see as part of my responsibility to go in there for those enrollment meetings. And I don’t care who they think I work for, what my job there is to educate them on how to use their health care. So that’s speaking their language, that’s talking about mental health, that’s talking about telemedicine, things that can change their lives will also benefit the employer.

Dr. Josh Luke: So a lot [00:19:30] of our listeners, Jess, are HR directors, business owners who are just taking all of this advice, and they’re getting from these people I interview on how to save money and seeing if it’s a good fit for their organization. I want to put you on the spot now, and I want you to think back to an aha moment in a meeting you had with a client or a potential client in the last year or so.

Dr. Josh Luke: Here’s the question, what’s that pain point that your organization can really help with that sets you guys apart [00:20:00] that you’ve seen that one or two clients, if not all of them, that call you and go, “Man, you guys really hit the ball out of the park identifying this as a vulnerability or this as an area for improvement for us.” Can you share with one with us one or two of those situations where you’re like, “Man, today was a good day. I know I’m good at what I do and my agency’s bringing value.”

Jessica Du Bois: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, it’s a bittersweet moment, but I immediately thought of what it was and that was meeting with, I think it was a 800-person credit [00:20:30] union. So they knew there was going to be a board. We knew that there was going to be some decision makers that were not going to be in the room, but that we’re also going to have an impact on whether we became the advisor on the account.

Jessica Du Bois: And an aha moment was as we were closing the meeting, the HR director told us, “I have been in this position for 30 years, and I’ve never seen a presentation like that. I’ve never heard a meeting like that.” And for me, I thought, [00:21:00] “Wow, that means we closed the deal. That means we got this because we just showed them things that they’d never seen before, and we just showed them opportunity and possibilities.”

Jessica Du Bois: We never got the deal. And that was an aha moment for me because it was like, “Okay, so what has to happen? We are so far behind in this industry that people think that the possibilities are fake, that they actually can’t happen.” And so I think for me that was, “Okay, we need to take a [00:21:30] step back and actually show them how them as a company, we can lead them from here and meet them where they’re at and take them here in five years.” And that’s the approach we’ve taken ever since.

Dr. Josh Luke: So I love the fact that you brought this up because when I speak to brokers and benefits advisors at events… And guys, I’m a public speaker, if you didn’t know that, hire me, I’d love to come to speak to your group, trade association, whatever it might be, drjoshluke.com, you can check me down there.

Dr. Josh Luke: Anyway, my message has always been, look, [00:22:00] I shake the tree letting American businesses know there’s much better ways to pay for better access to health care for less money than you’re doing. Jess just described an example of that. And what I’ve learned in the two years in this space is the number one reason, and you just heard a perfect example of why companies will not pull the trigger and stick with the status quo and overpay by 30, 40 or 50% for employee [00:22:30] healthcare benefits is job preservation.

Dr. Josh Luke: Nobody wants to rock the boat. Nobody wants to be the person that says, “Oh, let’s take a chance and make a change. Whether it’s…” And guys, this is true with CEOs, this is true with HR directors, benefits advisors. There’s a second reason that I think Jessica’s team experience that huge compliment with… There’s three reasons I would attribute it to; job preservation is absolutely the number one reason, and I’m going to give you an example of that in a second. Remind me to come back to that.

Dr. Josh Luke: Number two. [00:23:00] Well, somebody’s cousin is the broker, right? And we’re going to take your advice or college frat buddy or just even a 20-year relationship with a broker. It’s hard to leave them, but we were told by the board we had to do an RFP and view at least three and by the way you gave us some great ideas. We’re going to still give to our broker.

Dr. Josh Luke: And the third one guys is just adjusting to the fact that this exist. And so when I speak to brokers [00:23:30] meaning there’s a new way to do it, and it’s kind of like, “Well, why haven’t I heard about it before?” So what I leave brokers with when I speak, Jess, is I say, “Hey guys, I want you, when you do get that call from your client or potential client to go, ‘Hey, do you remember last year when we came in we said we have these three or four new product offerings, and you kind of shook your head. The meeting was getting long, so you were kind of like, ‘Yeah, I’m done now.’ But you were like, ‘Hey, that sounds cool. We’re not ready for that yet.’ Well, these are the concepts that we were throwing at you. They’re new, they’re here, they’re available.'” So have [00:24:00] you experienced that?

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Everything that you just said is exactly, it was the truth as well. The job preservation also, it was actually a big name, and there was an RFP involved. Everything that you just said was the truth.

Dr. Josh Luke: Well, and thank you because that’s what I’m known as a truth-teller because I always say the best thing about working for yourself is you can tell the truth and not have to worry about who you politically upset. Second best thing is not having to wear a tie every day. [00:24:30] But yeah, so let me tell you, Jess, when I had that aha moment about job preservation, I’d been out of the hospital C-suite for about four years, and I had just written, I think my first best selling book, Ex-Acute: A Former Hospital CEO Tells All Was Doing Well.

Dr. Josh Luke: I was speaking, making a great living, and I got a call from a hospital in Los Angeles County, and they said, “Hey, we would like you to come to be our CEO.” I said, “Oh no, I don’t do that anymore. I can recommend a few people.” A guy called back the next day, and he goes, “No, our owner wants you, and here’s [00:25:00] the deal. If you don’t want to do this longterm, can you just come in there on the interim basis and do this for us for a few months, and help us look for somebody who kind of meet your mold that understands there needs to be a massive change.”

Dr. Josh Luke: And so I agreed to do that. And here’s what changed from my prior three CEO jobs, Jess, the day I got there, I could care less if I upset a doctor because I was going to do the right thing, which is black and white, and there was so much less gray area than as a young CEO [00:25:30] where it wasn’t always black and white. There was gray area where you would work with your team to try to find a way to make something feel better or work that initially looked like it was not going to be an opportunity.

Dr. Josh Luke: And I don’t mean breaking any rules, I’m just saying being creative. But when you’re an interim, and part of the rule of the interim was you will not be interviewed or able to apply for the longterm job because of course some doctors may end up angled. They’re like, “Hey, the rule is as an interim you can’t be.” So I was like, “I have zero [00:26:00] consequence to do the right thing.”

Dr. Josh Luke: And with hospital CEOs, you realize they’re just job preservationists. They just don’t want to upset the apple cart. And I think that’s the exact reason companies don’t pull the trigger and do what I call declaring the tipping point. Declare your healthcare spending tipping point and say, “Hey, this is our second largest expense, and it’s out of control. We cannot control it.”

Dr. Josh Luke: And so what Jess just described is that a big company, [00:26:30] they decided just to get the annual steak dinner is what I call it, where at the end of the steak dinner, it’s a nice dinner, but you get the envelope that says, “Hey, 8% increase over last year.” And at the bottom, there’s a bullet point or to with the benefits we’re taking from you after you pay your 8% increase. So I’m so glad that you recognize that. So, Jess, let’s give some business strategy to your marketing mind I see on social media. What follow-up have you done? How long ago was that and what follow-up have you done [00:27:00] to make sure that those folks know that you’re still there, and you’re still thinking about them?

Jessica Du Bois: Yeah, so continuous follow-up. I think that’s probably the best thing that we do in our agency. But an example of something creative we do, and we’ve probably seen me talk about this on LinkedIn, if anyone follows me, that’s listening. But we will actually do video followups. So we have a nice camera setup, a little studio setup, and we’ll actually record our followups through video and then send them [00:27:30] through email and that gets more engagement.

Jessica Du Bois: And then after that, we’re doing continuous followups, phone calls, and we’re still in contact with this company where, actually, one of their HR directors left, and we’re still in contact with that person. And hopefully, we’ll move on with them in the relationship. And I think that’s just a clear example of why a follow-up is so important because… I mean those people are likely not going to stay at that job forever. You’ve left an impression, and your followup has also left an impression, and you’ll likely [00:28:00] build the relationship in the future.

Dr. Josh Luke: So we’re just about out of time, and I always close the podcast by asking… And you probably know this if you’ve listened to a few, so you’re ready for this answer. And I’m anxious to hear if it’s going to be a Hawkeyes or a Cyclone or if it’s going to be a DC Bay. So whether it’s a college team or a pro team, what is your favorite sports team to root for and why?

Jessica Du Bois: So I went to Iowa State, but I’m going to be alternative in this answer [00:28:30] and say the sport I probably watch most often is probably like MMA, like UFC boxing. I’m a trainer on the side, so part-time, and I love it. So that’s probably what I watch the most of.

Dr. Josh Luke: So do you ever follow Ryan Miller on LinkedIn or on Twitter?

Jessica Du Bois: Yes, I do.

Dr. Josh Luke: Yeah, Ryan’s great. He’s a big CrossFit guy, and he actually created a cost-sharing plan called FitHealth, and I’m a member of, specifically for people who are into fitness, and it’s really a brilliant idea. [00:29:00] We talked about it on a show that we pushed out a week or two ago. Hey, Jess, it was awesome getting to know you, and next time you’re in LA ping me, we’ll grab coffee. Next time I’m in DC, I’ll ping you, we’ll grab coffee. Anything else you want to leave our listeners with before we sign off?

Jessica Du Bois: Last thing that I was thinking of was if you’re really looking to make changes as a broker or to learn about marketing and think differently, I encourage you to kind of go outside your box and connect with people like you [00:29:30] as well as getting involved with summits or conferences. And just inspiring your mind to think differently with different people, people who are disrupting the industry and really just move forward. And like you said, how you work for yourself, you can start building your brand and your solutions on your own. And I think that’s very powerful.

Dr. Josh Luke: Awesome input. Yeah. I’ve been kind of focused on this healthcare affordability thing almost exclusively for about three years now. And there’s a community of people that know how to do [00:30:00] it, have the tools to do it, have proven they can do it. And Jess and her organization is one of those. So thanks so much for joining the show.

Jessica Du Bois: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Josh Luke: And go Cyclones. Forgive me for even bringing up the Hawkeyes. All right. Have a good one. Thanks so much, Jess.